My DMV nightmare
My wallet disappeared, but that was nothing compared to the pain of trying to get a new driver's license.I quickly cancelled all my bank cards and then went into DMV to get a new driver’s license. My number was 208, they were serving customer #186. Hmmmm. Where else can you go and stand in line with 22 people ahead of you? Once through, DMV would not accept my identification papers for a new license. Favoring reasonable protections I can accept thier decision. I raced home and dug up my birth certificate. Back in DMV my new number was #259 and they were serving customer #241.
This time DMV denied my new license because another person named Jason Williams with the same birthday had traffic tickets in Alabama! Here is where the story gets worse.
All other information (middle name, SSN#, race, eye color, etc.) was not available to the DMV agent, so I was guilty until I proved my innocence. DMV said I had to get a letter clearing my name from the Alabama Public Safety Department and gave me a phone number. I went home and called the number only to get a maze of voicemail options. If I hit zero for an operator I was immediately disconnected. If I waited on the phone for someone to help I was immediately disconnected. I began choosing various voicemail options and found nothing but 10 minute long message machines that gave the addresses of Alabama DMV locations. This was no help to me because even if I wanted to fly to Alabama to clear my name I couldn’t get on a stupid flight because I have no drivers license. After giving 15 different DMV locations for me to visit the voicemail said “hit zero for an operatorâ€. I hit zero and I was disconnected. I did this three separate times! The agency had made it impossible to talk to a real live person.
In desperation, I went to the Alabama website and found a host of local license re-admittance offices. I called the first one and got a dead end where no one answered the phone and with no option to leave a message. I called another city and got the same dead end. Finally, on the third city I got a person who sent me to the Fraud Unit. The Fraud Unit said they acknowledged that I was not the same Jason Williams in trouble in Alabama, but their office could not help me. The Fraud Unit transferred me to the Review Officer. Upon transfer the phone was disconnected. Luckily, I got the number in advance and called back directly. No one answered the phone at the Review Officer office and the line simply disconnected me. I kept calling back to have no one answer until it became 5:00 closing time in Alabama.
After three hours of trying to get my license renewed I am now starting day two. If no one in Alabama will answer the phone, I will be unable to get a drivers license. What a horrible system with a nation of 300 million people and a person with the same first/last name and birthday can invalidate everyone else with the same information without end. Heck, there are many Jason Williams' in the NBA alone! Imagine all the Dave Smiths and Bob Jones’ who will get trapped in this system.
Having bureaucratic dead end phone systems is not unique to Alabama. When I call the Oregon Department of Revenue or Employment Department I often get disconnections. If I leave a voice message it is a gamble that someone will return my call. My half-day ordeal is just an everyday example of what taxpayers suffer with when they run into a bureaucracy that is not customer friendly, inefficient and hostile to the people they are supposed to serve.
In desperation, I went to the Alabama website and found a host of local license re-admittance offices. I called the first one and got a dead end where no one answered the phone and with no option to leave a message. I called another city and got the same dead end. Finally, on the third city I got a person who sent me to the Fraud Unit. The Fraud Unit said they acknowledged that I was not the same Jason Williams in trouble in Alabama, but their office could not help me. The Fraud Unit transferred me to the Review Officer. Upon transfer the phone was disconnected. Luckily, I got the number in advance and called back directly. No one answered the phone at the Review Officer office and the line simply disconnected me. I kept calling back to have no one answer until it became 5:00 closing time in Alabama.
After three hours of trying to get my license renewed I am now starting day two. If no one in Alabama will answer the phone, I will be unable to get a drivers license. What a horrible system with a nation of 300 million people and a person with the same first/last name and birthday can invalidate everyone else with the same information without end. Heck, there are many Jason Williams' in the NBA alone! Imagine all the Dave Smiths and Bob Jones’ who will get trapped in this system.
Having bureaucratic dead end phone systems is not unique to Alabama. When I call the Oregon Department of Revenue or Employment Department I often get disconnections. If I leave a voice message it is a gamble that someone will return my call. My half-day ordeal is just an everyday example of what taxpayers suffer with when they run into a bureaucracy that is not customer friendly, inefficient and hostile to the people they are supposed to serve.
Sure makes you glad the same clowns arent running health care. And they say insurance companies are greedy!
Ahh government in Action.
Don't worry dean will soon explain to you how the DMV works just fine. And that your anti-government sentiment is effecting your judgment. He'll further advise you that driving is privilege and in most cases unnecessary with transit, biking, walking and telecommuting being better options.
Have you considered not drving any more and reducing your carbon footprint?
That said, I would suggest going back to the DMV and demand they give you your license. Maybe get that Lars guy on the phone while there.
Maybe video tape your next visit.
Have you been channeling dean? You are spot on, so much so that I almost spilled my coffee laughing. dean would be as funny as you, except for the fact that he seriously believes his crap.
I finally was able to reach someone in the Review Office this morning. It was funny because they couldn't help me prove my innocence until I provided a copy of my driver's license, which is what they are preventing me from getting.
The Office couldn't promise anything but they suggested I go back to Oregon DMV to get a driver's license record. So I went back this morning only to discover that the local office is closed until 9:00am on Wednesdays. Oh the fun continues!!!!!
I remember my last Orwellian experience with the DMV. My son was getting his learner's permit, and his birth certificate had a small tear in it. While several officials inspected it for "acceptability," a dozen citizens of Mexico got served by simply flashing their Matricula Consular cards!
One has to wonder how far we are from a bloody revolution.
I just got back from DMV. When I arrived at 9:00am there was 18 people standing outside waiting for it to open. I waited in line and then put in my request for a driver's record (so I can send it back to Alabama to clear my name). The bad news was that a driver's record request may take up to 3 days to arrive by mail. The good news is that they can fax it from Salem, but it would not be sent until the next day.
Being that there are important things I cannot do right now w/o a license until I get the record, I asked if there was any document that the DMV could print today that features my basic info (DL#, SNN#). Unfortunately there was not.
Now I wait until tomorrow. Oh the fun continues.
(P.S. I must state that even though the system is terribly flawed and I feel victimized by the process, all the agents I have talked to have been nice. They too are victims of a system that sets them up for failure.)
I'm sure the governor would be willing to interviene on your behalf.
Now that's funny.
Next time select the "Speak Spanish" option and real people (with Mexican accents) will answer. They may also scold you for cheating but you do get through and fast.
I have learned to start off in Spanish and then switch to English. Most never catch the change.
Gotta think like an Illegal Alien and work with the system.
You go to the DMV and you have 22 other taxpaying citizens ahead of you. Okay...how many staff did DMV have there? One? Five? Would you want them to have had 22 staff available, one for each customer? Now that would be an efficient use of our tax dollars wouldn't it?
You did not say how long you waited in line. Based on my own recent experiences, I would bet less than 20 minutes. But never mind. You failed to bring the proper identification. That is DMV's fault? Didn't we just have conservatives screaming about illegal aliens getting driver's liscences based on lax ID requirements?
So you go back home, get your ID, come back and now you are 18th in line. You expected to butt to the front based on your own earlier mistake?
And after all that it sounds like the real problem is with Alabama's sloppy record keeping, not Oregons.
And now you go back to the office and find it did not open until 9? And you blame who for that one? They did not have their hours posted the last 2 times you were there? You lost your phone and web connection as well as your wallet?
I can't believe this nonsense was even posted. Get over it and grow up.
Also Jason works for efficiency in ALL government not just Oregon so the Alabama stuff if relavent. The issue is that Oregon has access to enough information to deny an application but not enough to clear that denial.
This whole thing its about government screwing up because they are soooooo scared someone will move and not pay a damn ticket.
The idea that state governments can interconnect to such an extent that they will collect tickets for each other, but cant be bothered to attach a picture to the database or even call to get one is about as strong an indictment as one could find for the ruthless greed with which they operate. I can not believe you wont admit that in this instance. I mean come on, at some point government does something seriously wrong, this is definitely one of those times.
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I can't believe this nonsense was even posted. Get over it and grow up.
#10 dean on 2008-02-27 11:46 (Reply)
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dean is civil indeed.
Since the FBI NCIC query standard is Firstname, Lastname, DOB, Race, Gender, the DMV should be required to prove that "Jason Williams" is you, based on those 5 items. Using only Firstname, Lastname, and DOB should not be considered enough proof.
Just imagine what the lines would be like if state government monopolized banking, or food purchasing. Can we say USSR, boys and girls?
Even if Oregon state government sets the rules for issuing licenses, it doesn’t have to actually run the process. There are many existing businesses that could perform that task more efficiently, quicker and with better customer service.
Cascade Policy Institute published a proposal to privatize the DMV in 1997. My only regret is that it was not adopted in time for Jason to avoid his current situation. But it’s not too late to adopt it in time to save countless others from meeting the same fate.
Read “Privatize the Oregon DMV†at www.cascadepolicy.org/bgc/dmv.htm and then, if you agree, do what you can to see it enacted. The time and frustration you save may be your own.
Privatization is the governments method for permanently establishing programs which cannot be later removed. If we were to stop the Iraq war today, it would mean the loss of millions of jobs, and we all know that cannot be allowed.
The difference is that if a private contractor is doing a poor job, it can (and should) lose the contract. Its employees might lose their jobs, but another company then gains jobs if it can fulfill the contract better.
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Having lived in he Communist Block, I do say that the DMV resembles their system much more than the USPS nowadays. Going postal should be replaced with going moto.
"Even if Oregon state government sets the rules for issuing licenses, it doesn’t have to actually run the process. There are many existing businesses that could perform that task more efficiently, quicker and with better customer service."
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The state tells me what date I can change over to studded tires, but they let Les Schwab do the work. Same could be done here. With much better results for everybody. Except for the public unions and their goons, and the minions who are supported by their political donations.
Rupert...I don't buy the "greed" argument. Some clerk at DMV is not benefitting from payment of a fine in Alabama. The same people (conservatives) who are always yelling rules are rules, the law is the law and so forth in this case are outraged that a DMV cleark did not take it upon themselves to violate the law and issue a license to someone who did not have the right documentation.
Steve....one thing I am perplexed about, having lived in Oregon 30 years now, is that I recall the bad old days in the early 80s when a trip to DMV really was a day in H**l. But at one point, I think it was during the Goldschmidt Administration, a new administrator was put in charge of DMV and the situation changed very quickly. For one thing, you can get your car tags direcly from the DEQ testing center, where you used to have to go there, then to DMV and face the Vogons.
The few times I have had to go to DMV over the past number of years, I don't think I have spent more than 20 minutes waiting for my number to be called. That includes taking my son in for his drivers permit (eek) last fall. And I have always had very polite, helpful service. I can't believe I am the only one with this experience. Maybe all your readers need to go to the Gresham DMV.
Back to the original post. I do sympathize on the Alabama name mix up. People trying to board planes have been sidetracked because their names are on terorist watch lists. We think we live in an instant communication world, but this is not always the case.
All the other points Jason makes were his own doing, not the fault of bureaucracy, and had we privatized the DMV he could have ended up in exactly the same boat. I think you need to come up with more eggregious examples if you want to bash the DMV in order to push privitization.
And there are any number of private busneses who subject their customer to far longer waits than the DMV in any case.
Dean, I’ll just say that getting your tags now at the DEQ testing center is not an improvement from the standpoint that we shouldn’t have to go to the testing center in the first place.
Most modern cars emit so little pollution, compared to older cars, that it’s a waste of time to force us all into this additional government monopoly system.
The last time I went to the DEQ, it was obvious which car in line was the polluter. It was belching such a foul smelling concoction that the attendant had to ask the driver to get out of line and leave so as not to sicken the rest of us having to breath the fumes.
Catching gross polluters is one thing, but might be done in less intrusive ways that forcing all drivers to waste time and money going through the DEQ testing stations.
>I don't buy the "greed" argument. Some clerk at DMV is not benefitting from payment of a fine in Alabama.
I don't either, I don't know why you are bringing it up anyway since I never said that. I was speaking to government greed, and that is quite clear in my point. Bad straw man argument. Bad ....bad ....very bad straw man. You go to your room bad straw man, no dinner for you!
>DMV cleark did not take it upon themselves to violate the law and issue a license to someone who did not have the right documentation.
Uh, no, he did have the right documentation, DMV just simply has an incredibly poor database and should clearly be held accountable. This would be the case if it was an insurance company who denied a claim because someone with the same name hadn't paid their bill.
Oh wait, that would be different entirely, because in that case it would be a private company and you would be shouting from the ramparts waving a broken bourbon bottle calling for heads to roll.
Quite frankly I don't think even you believe what you are saying in this instance, I really think you are playing devils advocate at this point.
If nothing else, this entire event makes me pretty glad my name is Rupert. Dean - I don't know if your last name is something like Syzygy, if it is, great. If your last name is Jones or Smith, I would be a little worried. This whole thing could come back to bite you, in kind of a weird .... well... I guess instance of syzygy ( yes, that is an actual word, and no, I wasn't poking fun at your name, I was just trying to have a little levity, I hope you can take it that way. )
So it is the citizen's fault that various Alabama DMV offices do not answer their phones, nor even leave a message to make sure you called the right place?
So it is the citizen's fault if DMV can't print a simple statement of basic information from the office you visited?
So it is the citizen's fault that that government provides no clear and simple process to remove yourself from being falsley cited (and that because there is no simple process the extra time it takes out of our public employees time in two different states somehow is a benefit to the employees?)
I think government can do better.
That's just eggregious!
hehehe
My larger point...DMV reform....you did not experience it? Maybe I have been here longer than you. Trust me, it made a huge difference the one day every 2 years in my life I need to go there.
Jason....your account included 3 events that were your errors, not those of the DMV ("disappeared" wallet, neglect in bringing the right papers, failure to check hours of operation before showing up). You also made an irrelevant description of your wait:
"My number was 208, they were serving customer #186. Hmmmm. Where else can you go and stand in line with 22 people ahead of you? "
How about Safeway or Freddies? If you go to checkout and there are 22 people ahead of you, but 5 lanes open, that means there are really only 4 or 5 people ahead of you right? How many clerks were at the DMV? How long did you actually wait to tell your story to one? Those are the relevant details, not what number you had, don't you agree?
And perhaps you have not experienced phone option/waiting hell with any private companies, but I sure have. Its not a public vs private problem, its a bigness-smallness and competition problem. And private companies typically off shore their phone service to Bangalore India for heavens sake. If you "privitize" DMV you could as easily as not end up with a worse phone wait system, since you have no where else to turn in any case.
And again, bottom line is that your problem was located in Alabama. Maybe that is the DMV (a poorly funded red state I might add) where Cascade Policy ought to go sell your privitization project.
I have no reason to support or not support state management of our DMV. I have no relatives who work there, and I frankly don't care if it gets privitized or not, as long as costs and waits don't increase and offices don't end up in Timbuktu. I just think your particular experience says nothing about the merits of privitization, and nothing about the efficiency or lack thereof of the OREGON DMV.
Give us an empirical study of average DMV wait times, errors, etc. and compare these with privitized DMV services in some other state or nation if you want to make a case here.
And CC...I don't need to get warm and fuzzy over the Goldschmidt Administration. Last I checked we have had 3 more Democratic governors in a row since then, so no need for nostalgia here.
Dean, my car was 32 years old when I had the DEQ experience I mention above. One year older and it would have been exempt from this time-wasting exercise. I’ve never owned a “shiny new car†either.
And, no, I did not experience the improvement you mention under “DMV reform.†Perhaps it only happened at the Gresham office as you suggest above. I went to the one at the Lloyd Center.
If you don’t like privatization, perhaps you might like the reform made in New Zealand. When it’s equivalent of the DMV couldn’t justify two-year license renewals a few years ago, the government decided that licenses would be valid until (I believe) age 65 or some such age at which time they require retesting for eyesight.
I did go to the DMV at the Lloyd Center once. I don't remember waiting in line more than a few minutes.
Since we are mixing DEQ and DMV, Is it your belief that the free market would solve air pollution problems without government intervention? That does not seem to be happening in China by the way.
Or are these kinds of roadblocks okay, so long as they only target the eeevviiiilll brown people.
Jason W. ... I agree that the link with Alabama is annoying and if somehad had shown a little initiative, probably could have been cleared up fairly easily with a phone call and a quick fax. However, I'm less sympathetic about having 22 people in front of you and having to wait. How long and loudly would you be complaining if you happened to walk into a DMV office that had four or five clerks "doing nothing" -- even if it was the only time over a span of several hours that they hadn't been busy? We'd all be hearing about the "government waste" from hiring all these "unnecessary people."
Also, there's an interesting parallel between your episode and the conservative plea for tighter controls over voting. The Rs seem to want people to have to travel (sometimes long distances) to vote, and require them to bring all kinds of documentation. Imaging how many opportunities there would be to create similar "nightmares" in a situation that has greater civic importance.
Dean ... Good point about the length of hold times when one goes into "phone menu limbo." This certainly isn't limited to government; my longest, and most exasperating, waits have occurred with private firms.
The last time I went to DEQ, it took an hour and a half to get tested. A group of about 50 card sat idling and/or starting and stopping the whole time. Nice pollution and waste of gas/time, eh Dean?
If that's you're idea of government efficiency, it's no wonder this state is such a mess.
Sorry if that's your experience. But the fact is, you aren't forced at the pointy of a gun to do business with a private company.
You ever try to complain about service from a gummint agency? Often the manager is worse than the help.
Nor do I agree that only with government agencies do you find managers who are worse than the front line folks. Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't. This is true with private industry, too. It's one thing to be anti-government, but being unrealistic makes you sound like a crank.
The fact is, you don't have to do business with a private company. Private companies fail all the time due to lousy customer service. You think Starbucks is successful by treating their customers like crap? And in the off-chanced they do treat you like crap, you can choose to never go there again. Consequently, they lose a lifetime customer.
The same case can't be made with gummint agencies. You are forced to accept their crap at the point of a gun.
Got it now?
Your assertion that customer service is only poor in the public sector is so far off base that it doesn't deserve further comment. Hating all things government (until, of course, you need it) is one thing; being completely unrealistic about the level of service between public and private sectors is another.
No matter how hard you try to spin the argument, the fact is that one is forced at the point of a gun to deal with gummint agencies no matter how bad their service might be.
Also, going to another office may shorten the line significantly. Offices in smaller towns tend to have shorter wait times. I have occasionally had no wait time in Corvallis.
By the way, which DMV office have you been dealing with so far? I never want to go there.
In response to trying different offices, I think that is a good idea if it is feasible. Also I have noticed that certain employees tend to make life much more difficult than others at the Corvallis branch. Maybe wait for a different person than the one who gave you trouble previously?
Hoisted by your own tax-cutting petards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petard)!
DMV is a joke - no one is ever held accountable for their actions or inactions.
It is a sad comment on government.
Jason's story is at best about his own mistakes plus problems with the DMV services in the great state of Alabama. There must be better examples out there than this. Or how about trying actual data or analysis?
For Rupert...up above...no I'm not just playing devil's advocate in this case. I truly am having a hard time understanding Jason's issue as anything more than petty griping and exagerrations with respect to his wait times.
I take no offense at all at your humor. And yes, those with more common names are likely to have more trouble across the board, including terrorist watch lists stopping them from boarding planes, identity theft, and DMV issues. I don't have a solution for these folks, do you?
On the other hand, people with names like mine, long, multi-sylable, easy to mispell, have our own inconveniences to deal with. As Jimmy Carter famously said, "life is unfair."
Also, I don't see how I used a "straw man" argument as it is generally understood, i.e. setting up a weak argument in order to knock it down. I did not set anything up, you did with your unsupported comment that Jason's problems were caused by "government greed." I just don't see how "greed" is a factor here. Please explain.
I said the basic genesis of this entire thing was government greed. State governments being so scared someone will not pay a few parking tickets that they have linked together their DMV data base's so as to collect these tickets for each other but somehow didn't think maybe attaching the persons picture to the data base would be necessary to prevent this sort of thing.
You constructed a straw man argument by saying it is hard to see it as a case of government greed because you didn't see how the DMV clerk personally profited so thus my contention that it all boiled down to government greed was invalid.
This is a straw man argument because the plain text of my statements made it abundantly clear that I was speaking of state governments, not individuals at the DMV, thus you are contending something that is irrelevant to my statement.
That is the definition of a straw man argument - Arguing a point that a person never made in an attempt to draw a conclusion about the point that they were, in fact, making.
Look, I don't know exactly what "actual" damages Jason is suffering here but at the end of the day, if a private citizen tried to have someone arrested, or sued, or attached his assets based on no more evidence than
"well.....well.....he has the same name and birthday"
they would put him away. Lord knows who ever made the rule that if another state says you owe parking tickets, they don't have to do jack to prove it, and it is entirely up to you to clear it. I have to say I am not sure, but I have a real good feeling this wasn't voted on by anyone. I would bet it was another case of government by fiat.
At the end of the day, what would be nice is that since the onus seems to be on Jason to clear himself, the Alabama and Oregon governments should be held liable, same as if a private citizen falsely attached someone's assets.
Jason got mugged.
An effective troll uses many tools to accomplish his goal, which is to hijack, divert or even subvert the original dialog. See wikipedia.
And dean is effective at his craft, especially with some many enablers on this site helping him along.
IMO, it has turned Oregon Catalyst into quite the boring site, actually.
Please ban Dean. He contributes nothing to the discussion. If it wasn't clear before it should be clear now that his sole function is to naysay every other comment. No poster should be allowed to contnually clog the site with such irrelevancy. Harry is right about his negative effect on the site. You'd actually be doing him a favor, if he can't waste all day here, he might actually get a job (teaching one class as an extended studies instructor at PSU isn't a job).
I am not requesting, nor advocating, that dean be banned. I am only observing "IMO, it has turned Oregon Catalyst into quite the boring site, actually."
As to your comment: "I think his posts also provoke very interesting responses which would not have happened otherwise.", I will only ask what your definition of interesting is? In the eye of hte beholder...
And does dean further the mission of OregonCatalyst as a place for conservative Oregonians to gather and share news, commentary, and gossip, well he doesn't, IMO.
But that is okay. There are many other conservative sites that have not yet been blessed with dean's domination of the discourse.
Both liberal/progressive and conservative discourse is improved by arguments coming from the opposite side. Oregon Catalyst is actually a more interesting site than Blue Oregon precisely because it draws opinions on both sides. On BO, there is relatively little challenge to the constant drumbeat of left-wing views.
dian...Jason said: "Where else can you go and stand in line with 22 people ahead of you?"
That sounded like complaining to me. If it was simply a factual statement: I was 22nd in line, he could have also stated the tyle of flooring and how many windows the room had. He was trying to make his larger point (bad government) by exaggerating the wait, in my opinion. (Personally, I think there is enough bad government out there that there is no need to exaggerate).
Rupert...your plain text was not plain enough for me apparently. But still..."government greed?" Collecting fines for law violations is defined as greed? What good are fines if they are not enforced? I thought conservatives like yourself support law enforcement?
Maybe attaching a photo would have been a good idea, maybe it would have amounted to a privacy violation. But the absence of the photo signifying greed? I just don't buy it.
But enough on Jason's trials and tribulations. Surely something more important or urgent is happening somewhere.
>Ahh yes, and of course somehow all the DMV's are hooked up to collect on each others tickets as there is money to be made! The extra expense of adding a picture to the database forgone as it would eat into profits.
My second post ( the relevant parts )
>This whole thing its about government screwing up because they are soooooo scared someone will move and not pay a damn ticket.
You thought that was talking about individual DMV clerks, and not about governments in general? How astonishing. That frankly is very hard to believe.
At any rate, to continue:
>Collecting fines for law violations is defined as greed? What good are fines if they are not enforced? I thought conservatives like yourself support law enforcement?
We do, however this is a civil matter, not a law enforcement matter so I am not sure of the relevance.
As an aside, since you apparently don't think government is greedy in this regard, let us please not ever hear any talk about greedy bank fees, credit card fees and the like, they tend to be much smaller than the rate at which government steps up late fees on these sort of tickets. I have a feeling whatever penalties have accrued on these tickets would make a loan shark blush.
Maybe attaching a photo would have been a good idea, maybe it would have amounted to a privacy violation. But the absence of the photo signifying greed? I just don't buy it.
A privacy violation? Are you serious? God Lord man, we are talking about the DMV, they do tend to take a photograph of everyone who gets a drivers license and be able to bring it up at a moments notice when you go down there or get pulled over.
The fact is apparently at least the Alabama State government just simply cant be bothered to provide a photograph with their claim, they just want the money, that's greed pure and simple. The Oregon State government is equally culpable in giving any credence to what, if it was a private claim this specious, should be thrown out in an instant. The states have a good racket going with this, obviously no one wants to rock the boat to much, too bad they don't chase after those who skate on their emergancy room/hospital bill with the same alacrity. They seem to jump to a simple tug of the leash from Alabama, imagine if they looked out for in state hospital revenues the same way they do for other states DMV's?
Harry...the scary thing about cyberspace is I could show up just about anywhere. I could be blogging under 15 different pseudonyms. I could be anonymous (above) and be simply arguing with myself. A Descartian moment eh?
So your other "conservative" sites may not be so safe after all. Bwahahahaha (que the evil sounding laughter).
You must be from Damascus, a Greek, and the most Liberal person I care to call a friend. Get off our CONSERVATIVE site and go play with your friends who lost the 3 iniatives.
http://www.oregoncatalyst.com/index.php?/archives/1241-The-DMV-nightmare-is-finally-over.html